- ago
I am a fan of fanless laptops, I'm tired of waiting for something interesting on Windows. And MacBook Air or Pro on M1 looks great. But I'm not sure if WL7 will run on it (using Windows for ARM).
0
2,289
26 Replies

Reply

Bookmark

Sort
- ago
#1
For what it's worth:
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/14/parallels-desktop-native-m1-support/
0
vk8
 ( 42.87% )
- ago
#2
I am just like you. I have moved to LG. The LG GRAM 17” is excellent. Very quite. I hardly hear the fan. It is fast and extremely light.
PERFECT.
1
- ago
#3
QUOTE:
For what it's worth:
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/14/parallels-desktop-native-m1-support/


Yes, there is a Windows 10 for ARM and you can install in on M1 Air, and there is Rosetta 2 to run x86 (and x64) applications, but I'm not sure if it is enough to run WL7 there?
0
- ago
#4
I am also considering buying a new Mac with Apple silicon / M1 chip. I will be using Parallels on Mac and then Windows 11 ARM version. Windows 11 will run x86 emulator to run WealthLab x86/x64 versions. Can somebody share the experience on performance and any other hiccups?

Is there an ARM build of WealthLab? If not, can you make it available - probably it might just be an option during compilation. It will avoid Windows 11 from using x86/x64 emulator and will give a speed boost. This might be useful for Windows world also as there are new Windows laptops coming with ARM chips.
0
- ago
#5
Some months ago, I was considering the same and then decided for something completely different.

I had a 6y old MacBook Pro (Intel based) and ran windows 10 via Parallels Desktop. It worked great with WL6, although it didn’t support multi-threaded optimisations.
Then, with Apple ditching Intel, things were to become more complicated. In the meantime, Parallels Desktop is also available for the M1 and Microsoft accelerated the development of Windows for ARM, including support for 64 bits applications.

Still, considering all these shortcomings, I decided for something else: I built a small fanless PC just for trading, including WL6/WL7 and, when I want portability, I just Remote Desktop to it (via a VPN on my router) from the MacBook or lately an iPad Pro.

Works great, without any of the limitations related to the current state of Parallels and Windows on ARM.

I spent less than 1000€ and speced it with the best components I could get 11 months ago: AMD 4750G APU 8C/16T, 64GB ram, 1 TB SSD. The only limitation is that I cannot connect to it without internet; but with the exception of plane travels, that is not really a problem for me. Considering the price of the new MacBooks, I doubt that the 1000€ I spent would be enough to bump it’s specs in order to be able to have decent resources for the host and the VM; and no way the performance would ever be the same.
2
- ago
#6
We're shooting for a .NET 6 upgrade which apparently can target ARM chips (but has to be activated separately)
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/43313
0
- ago
#7
With the .NET 6 upgrade, it looks like we can run WealthLab directly on MacOS and no need of Parallels+Windows setup.
@Eugene, is that what you are targeting to enable users to run WealthLab on MacOS directly?
0
Glitch8
 ( 15.20% )
- ago
#8
I don't think so. I don't think .NET 6 will include the WPF framework for native Mac OS.
1
- ago
#9
I finally completed my setup on MacOS with Apple Silicon + Parallels + Windows 11 for ARM + Windows x64 to ARM virtualization + WealthLab.

MacBook Pro with M1 Pro chip is super fast. Even Windows 11/ARM running on Parallels is fast. The performance of Windows x64 to ARM virtualization is slow, actually super slow.

I did some performance comparisons:
Setup 1: MacBook Pro with Intel Core i9 + Parallels + Windows 10 (4 core, 6 GB RAM)
Setup 2: MacBook Pro with M1 Pro + Parallels + Windows 11/ARM (4 core, 6 GB RAM) + Windows x64 to ARM virtualization

WealthLab Startup Time (avg of 3 times)
Setup1: 14.61 secs
Setup2: 50.89 secs

My Favorite Big Script (avg of 3 times, no cached symbols):
Setup 1: 3.12 secs
Setup 2: 12.17 secs

My Favorite Big Script (avg of 3 times, cached symbols):
Setup 1: 2.34 secs
Setup 2: 11.65 secs

I ran "My Favorite Big Script" on just one symbol and it is mostly a charting script which plots various indicators and drawings on the chart.

As you can see slowness through Windows x64 to ARM virtualization is prohibitive. I do all development of WealthLab scripts in Visual Studio. The Visual Studio also does not run native on Windows/ARM and goes through x64 to ARM virtualization and is very slow.

I did some timing on my script. My script takes only 3 secs and rest of 9 secs is spent in WealthLab - about 2-3 secs pre-processing and 6-7 secs post processing after code execution of my script is done. Currently it is running with 3 years of daily eod data. I will do some optimization in the input data and also in the script. I am hoping I can bring down runtime to less than 3 secs for running on a single symbol.

My current plan is to use Setup 2 for running. Setup 2 will not work for development because of slowness in Visual Studio and also start up time of WealthLab is too slow in this setup and I don't have any idea to optimize this. And when I want to some development, I will use Setup 1 (still have the old laptop).

@alkimist I liked your idea of having a separate Windows machine and do a remote desktop. I might end up like that if I see myself using Wealthlab more often. I don't have skill to build a machine myself, but I will just pick a Dell or HP box for this. Anybody has any idea on this? If I am running only WealthLab on a Windows PC, then does it matter if it is Intel core i3 or i5 or i7? Also, does it take advantage of high RAM (16 GB vs 32 GB vs 64 GB)? Anybody has done any performance comparisons on these?
2
- ago
#10
From my subjective impression only (no proper performance tests done), it seems that WL7 runs fine in general, with any modern computer hardware. I read in another discussion that the WL team is planning to move to .NET 6; that should normally give some performance improvements, since according to Microsoft’s information, it brings “massive gains in performance”:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-6/

I don’t know how you use WL, but if you plan on doing optimisations, then the more cores the better and I would at least go for 32GB of RAM. Since WL7 doesn’t seem to profit from GPU processing, then I would go for an APU (CPU with integrated graphics). According to other discussions, it seems that the level 3 caching is also important.

My current setup is:
CPU: AMD 4750G 8C/16T (the best APU that money could buy, one year ago); in the meantime the AMD 5750G came to replace it; and Intel 11th generation CPUs seem to have caught-up.

RAM: 64GB DDR4, 3200MHz.

SSD: 1TB PCIe 4.0 NVMe


It’s 1y old but, if it would be today, I would just replace the CPU for the generation update and would maintain everything else, still.

At the time, I paid less than 1000€ In parts; and, to be honest, is more than enough for any trading related processing. The only use-case where it could fall short, is if you would work with ML algorithms: those benefit from GPU processing and a dedicated graphics card would be better.
I think you should be able to find many offerings with similar specs around the 1000€/$1000 mark, and I believe this should be more than enough for a trading PC (and much more to be honest).

In my case, I have a ultra-wide screen with 3 computers connected to it (my personal laptop - a older MacBookPro; that trading PC; and my company’s laptop); I then have a single keyboard and mouse to switch from one to the other (it’s seamless). Because of the computer density on my desk, it was very important for me to have a completely silent fanless build and it needed to be small too. I ended up using the HDPLEX H1 fanless case - at the time it was the only one so small that I could find with an integrated power supply (without an external power brick).

Then, when I travel, I Remote Desktop to it with a iPad Pro, over a VPN connection, for extra security. I can also use the older MacBook Pro with Microsoft’s “RD Client” app. With a proper internet connection, there is virtually no latency and in full-screen mode, you immerse into it and completely forget that are using a remote machine.
1
- ago
#11
@alkimist Thanks for sharing your setup in so much details! That gave me some good ideas.

The current performance of WealthLab on Windows/ARM is not something which is working for me... it is just too slow to do anything useful. And I have probably already spent enough hours on trying to tweak things to make the setup usable. So I will just get a descent x64 desktop to run WealthLab.

Hopefully, WealthLab, .NET, Windows, Parallels - all will catch up on the performance on the ARM64 architecture in the next 6-12 months and then I can use them directly on the Mac. Until then, I will just do remote desktop to my Windows desktop.

I will look into the VPN setup through the router. Earlier, I had setup connecting to my box at home from outside through NAT and dynamic dns settings on the router.

For anybody looking into this, make sure to get Windows 10/11 Pro version as the "Home" version will not allow to login remotely.
0
- ago
#12
QUOTE:
For anybody looking into this, make sure to get Windows 10/11 Pro version as the "Home" version will not allow to login remotely.

Actually it is possible with a patch, at least in Windows 10. I was using it a while ago on a Windows 10 Home box:
https://www.itechtics.com/remote-desktop-windows-10-home/
0
- ago
#13
@Eugene, Thanks for the tips!
Good to know that there is some patch to remote desktop to Windows 10 Home edition.
0
- ago
#14
QUOTE:
We're shooting for a .NET 6 upgrade which apparently can target ARM chips (but has to be activated separately)
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/43313


@Eugene, any update on .NET 6 upgrade and build for ARM chips?
0
Glitch8
 ( 15.20% )
- ago
#15
Not yet, we haven't even started considering it at this stage.
0
- ago
#16
Can we add it as a feature request - support for ARM chips ?

Let me know and I can create a separate thread with title "Support WealthLab on Windows with ARM chips".
0
Glitch8
 ( 15.20% )
- ago
#17
Nah we don't need a feature request for this, it's already on the longer-term road map and we will get to it at the appropriate time.
0
vk8
 ( 42.87% )
- ago
#18
I use a the MacBook Air M1 with Parallels and Win11. It kind of works but since I only have 16GB RAM it gets slow at times. I basically have to close any other app.
I went back to the LG Gram, which is really a master in weight and size. It seems faster than the above mentioned.
I kind of get to like Win(11) again.
I really miss the excellent search of the Mac, a good mail and calendar tool and the display of folder size.
0
vk8
 ( 42.87% )
- ago
#19
The LG Gram is really quite!
0
- ago
#20
Has there been any progress with native mac support via .NET6? thank you.
0
Glitch8
 ( 15.20% )
- ago
#21
Our core libraries are now platform neutral so that’s progress. But we simply don’t have the bandwidth to create an entirely new native mac UI platform.
0
- ago
#22
Can WL8 be used on MacBookAir M1? And if so, how? Finally, i'd like to know if the integration is limited to some features, or runs smoothly.
0
Cone8
 ( 21.65% )
- ago
#23
To run WealthLab on a Mac, you need a Windows VM - Parallels or Boot Camp, for example.
0
- ago
#24
Another newbie question, I expect I know the answer, but I will ask.
Will Wealth Lab work on a Mac?
0
- ago
#25
Kindly use the forum search before posting basic questions, please. (I appended your new topic to this existing one.)
0
- ago
#26
I'm actually running WL8 on a Macbook Pro (M2 Max, 12 Cores, 32GB RAM) and Parallels (Win11). Should have enough power/ram for optimizations and so on. But I'm just wondering if Mac & Parallels aren't somehow limited in speed in comparison to a native Windows Machine (let's say Microsoft Surface with same spec). I would change to a native Windows system if it's significantly faster but I'm not sure and can't test it. Does anyone has some experience with this?
0

Reply

Bookmark

Sort