Anyone else experiencing performance issues with this (C2) platform?
I'm finding that their platform does not book P/L accurately, as confirmed with audits of simultaneous A/B comparisons between WL and C2 for the exact same strategy and parameters .
Then, when queried, they will not reply adequately. Frustrating.
I'm finding that their platform does not book P/L accurately, as confirmed with audits of simultaneous A/B comparisons between WL and C2 for the exact same strategy and parameters .
Then, when queried, they will not reply adequately. Frustrating.
Rename
Give us a specific example.
1. Do you have an API-enabled account?
2. What code are you using to query?
3. Are you using your own connector or WealthLab's C2 Broker?
1. Do you have an API-enabled account?
2. What code are you using to query?
3. Are you using your own connector or WealthLab's C2 Broker?
I do have an API Account with C2, and no matter what block strat I use, the inaccuracies persist. I also use IQFeed ( on your good advice, Cone. They are great!). Also using WealthLab's C2 Broker.
The fact that they don't address this issue, or even reply without a useless canned response, is not good.
One thing I need to say is that all the strats I compared were Market entry orders. I'll be testing a limit order entry strat today and if that fails too, I'm not wasting anymore time with them.
The fact that they don't address this issue, or even reply without a useless canned response, is not good.
One thing I need to say is that all the strats I compared were Market entry orders. I'll be testing a limit order entry strat today and if that fails too, I'm not wasting anymore time with them.
Don't blame C2 yet... it's more likely our C2 Provider.
I'm looking into it.
I'm looking into it.
The C2 V4 API was "in revision" while we were doing our integration, and as suspected we "missed getting the memo" on this one.
Fixed in WealthLab Build 49 - the broker account will get Equity (ModelAccountValue), Cash, and BuyingPower directly from C2.
Fixed in WealthLab Build 49 - the broker account will get Equity (ModelAccountValue), Cash, and BuyingPower directly from C2.
I see that WL8 Build 49 was sent to us this AM. Is the fix you mentioned above included in that build? I read the release log but I can't really determine if that fix was implemented or not.
The method used to get the model account value has changed, yes. Previously it was based on a calculation, but now the value comes directly from C2.
Well, unfortunately, it's still not resolved.
C2 Account values are completely different that the ones shown concurrently in WL8.
The ONLY value that is accurate is the quantity.
The numerical values that are incorrect are Basis, Last Price, and even P/L is wrong.
EXAMPLE
For example, if SQQQ Basis (on C2) is $21.21 and the Last Price is also $21.21, they show a P/L of -$121.32. In addition, the Basis shown in WL8 at the same time is $21.15.
To make matters worse, when one attempts to close a position on C2 through WL8, not only does it take 15 seconds to process, but what WL8 shows as a hefty gain is booked as a hefty loss on C2.
C2 Account values are completely different that the ones shown concurrently in WL8.
The ONLY value that is accurate is the quantity.
The numerical values that are incorrect are Basis, Last Price, and even P/L is wrong.
EXAMPLE
For example, if SQQQ Basis (on C2) is $21.21 and the Last Price is also $21.21, they show a P/L of -$121.32. In addition, the Basis shown in WL8 at the same time is $21.15.
To make matters worse, when one attempts to close a position on C2 through WL8, not only does it take 15 seconds to process, but what WL8 shows as a hefty gain is booked as a hefty loss on C2.
Before we were talking about Account Value, Cash, and Buying Power.
Now I think you're taking about Position basis price and value in the Accounts tool, but you didn't say how or if the Last Price was updated with Streaming data. The only thing relevant coming from C2 for Positions is the average price and quantity. The rest, WL has to calculate for the Accounts display.
Re: delay
Orders are placed immediately, and C2 processes them hypothetically - like we do in a backtest. However, we have to poll every 6 seconds for feedback.. that's the delay. In the future, it's likely C2 upgrades the API to a socket connection, which will make this kind of thing more responsive.
Now I think you're taking about Position basis price and value in the Accounts tool, but you didn't say how or if the Last Price was updated with Streaming data. The only thing relevant coming from C2 for Positions is the average price and quantity. The rest, WL has to calculate for the Accounts display.
Re: delay
Orders are placed immediately, and C2 processes them hypothetically - like we do in a backtest. However, we have to poll every 6 seconds for feedback.. that's the delay. In the future, it's likely C2 upgrades the API to a socket connection, which will make this kind of thing more responsive.
The fact is C2 doesn't provide a way to get the current price for a position via their API. So, to make the prices current in the accounts tool you just need to enable streaming updates.
The Basis Price comes directly from the C2 AvgPx field which is the only price field they return via their API. It's supposed to be the average entry price.
The Basis Price comes directly from the C2 AvgPx field which is the only price field they return via their API. It's supposed to be the average entry price.
C2 has obvious potential, but my experience is that C2 and WL8 are not talking to each other with any acceptable level of accuracy. Apparently I am the only one complaining about this.
What's the precise complaint at this point? Is your position basis price not accurate?
I'm looking at my strategies and the basis price is the same as what's on my strategy page(s) on Collective2. If there's some discrepancy let us know the details so we can contact C2 and inquire about it.
I'm looking at my strategies and the basis price is the same as what's on my strategy page(s) on Collective2. If there's some discrepancy let us know the details so we can contact C2 and inquire about it.
Mine are perfect too, and Position P/L is precisely correct when Streaming Updates is turned on with an appropriate provider.
Today I ran the exact same strategy on both C2 and WL8 Dummy Account, simultaneously.
I stream with IQFeed FYI, and I have over 100 transactions per day per account.
After two (2) hours, my WL8 Account was up +$1,783, while the new C2 trading Account was down -$399, after closing both.
My WL8 Dummy Account balances (Basis, Last, P/L) rarely are the same. Perhaps the 15 second lag time to fill my market orders has something to do with it, not sure. But, the net result, as reported above, is dramatic. I'm glad your experiences are better than mine. And, If I'm the only one complaining, I can only assume it's something I'm doing. I'll continue to play with it to see if I can Isolate the problem.
I stream with IQFeed FYI, and I have over 100 transactions per day per account.
After two (2) hours, my WL8 Account was up +$1,783, while the new C2 trading Account was down -$399, after closing both.
My WL8 Dummy Account balances (Basis, Last, P/L) rarely are the same. Perhaps the 15 second lag time to fill my market orders has something to do with it, not sure. But, the net result, as reported above, is dramatic. I'm glad your experiences are better than mine. And, If I'm the only one complaining, I can only assume it's something I'm doing. I'll continue to play with it to see if I can Isolate the problem.
What order types?
Give an example of one trade that was different - order type, when it was placed, and where it filled on both platforms.
The Dummy Broker has limitations - it may not fill orders realistically.
C2 would be far more trustworthy for simulated live trading!
It's only now that I understand that you're talking about P&L of the dummy broker and not just the Account display. Title changed.
Give an example of one trade that was different - order type, when it was placed, and where it filled on both platforms.
The Dummy Broker has limitations - it may not fill orders realistically.
C2 would be far more trustworthy for simulated live trading!
It's only now that I understand that you're talking about P&L of the dummy broker and not just the Account display. Title changed.
OK, well, I don't know what those limitations are, but tomorrow I'll run comparisons on only order with Limit entry and exits, and see what that shows me.
As for examples, unfortunately my WL account was flattened, so I have no record of the Dummy Account trades.
As for examples, unfortunately my WL account was flattened, so I have no record of the Dummy Account trades.
The Dummy Broker is meant as a quick and dirty way to test out some trades, not as a comprehensive paper account. Something like an Alpaca or IB paper account would probably match more closely.
But at this point I would drill down and examine some individual trades to see why the results are different in C2 and the Dummy Broker experience.
But at this point I would drill down and examine some individual trades to see why the results are different in C2 and the Dummy Broker experience.
Re: Limitations
User Guide > Order Manager > Dummy Broker (last topic on that page)
User Guide > Order Manager > Dummy Broker (last topic on that page)
I can't seem to locate this user guide. How do I navigate the platform to find it?
Re: Limitations (on a separate, but related note)
When I place live orders (any type) through WL8 Strategies into my broker (TD Ameritrade, they are filled immediately, and then are accounted for "to the penny" within the Accounts page of WL8, as the account data streams back from TDA, literally without lag or delay (especially now since I began using IQFeed). So, the WL8 Accounts page has always accurately reflected what was happening in my TD Ameritrade account.
What I've been trying to explain recently is that, this is not the case with my C2 Account. It seems to me that if TD Ameritrade can stream back accurate account data, so, too, should C2. Hence my frustration.
I seem to be the exception with this, and I've asked them at C2 (as well) for assistance with this, a couple of weeks ago. I appreciate your help with this.
When I place live orders (any type) through WL8 Strategies into my broker (TD Ameritrade, they are filled immediately, and then are accounted for "to the penny" within the Accounts page of WL8, as the account data streams back from TDA, literally without lag or delay (especially now since I began using IQFeed). So, the WL8 Accounts page has always accurately reflected what was happening in my TD Ameritrade account.
What I've been trying to explain recently is that, this is not the case with my C2 Account. It seems to me that if TD Ameritrade can stream back accurate account data, so, too, should C2. Hence my frustration.
I seem to be the exception with this, and I've asked them at C2 (as well) for assistance with this, a couple of weeks ago. I appreciate your help with this.
Yes C2 currently doesn’t have a streaming or web socket capability, order status and account updates need to be handled by making polling requests. And there is a rate limit so we can’t make them too frequently or else you’ll get blocked for an hour.
Regarding the WL8 user guide, you can navigate to it by hitting the F1 key or selecting Help from the main menu.
Regarding the WL8 user guide, you can navigate to it by hitting the F1 key or selecting Help from the main menu.
Please provide at least 1 concrete example that includes order details of the opening and closing trades - order types, quantity, time placed, fill prices, etc.
It sounds like you're duplicating trades with the Dummy Broker and at C2.
To compare, just make a copy of the Order Manager trade list - and be sure that "Auto-Remove" is not checked for Completed [orders].
It sounds like you're duplicating trades with the Dummy Broker and at C2.
To compare, just make a copy of the Order Manager trade list - and be sure that "Auto-Remove" is not checked for Completed [orders].
I'd love to, but I am now unable to connect with C2 via their API.
Error Code:
"Collective2: Connect Failed: C2 Error() Not Found (2013) Not Found"
-----------------
OK, they are telling me they need a photo of a government issued ID in order for me to use the API, and they have blocked me until that is provided.
Error Code:
"Collective2: Connect Failed: C2 Error() Not Found (2013) Not Found"
-----------------
OK, they are telling me they need a photo of a government issued ID in order for me to use the API, and they have blocked me until that is provided.
That’s somewhat unexpected.
In C2's General Account settings, Strategy Manager's need to do the identity verification, "To comply with U.S. and exchange regulations, we are required to know the identity of any Strategy Manager who runs a trading strategy on Collective2 which is open to subscribers."
I guess I never ran into that because I joined C2 like 15 years ago :D
Glitch, are you running a live strategy as a Trade Leader on C2? Which one is it?
I've spent several weeks attempting to (unsuccessfully) cancel my account with C2, or even get someone to answer the phone or reply to my messages.
Matt Klein (et al) goes radio silent until he has to defend C2 from another very bad review. Shameful, and most unfortunate business behavior from what appears to be a potentially promising platform and business model.
Matt Klein (et al) goes radio silent until he has to defend C2 from another very bad review. Shameful, and most unfortunate business behavior from what appears to be a potentially promising platform and business model.
Note when you have subscribers to your strategy, then C2 will reflect the fill executed by the subscribers. There will be an additional delay and C2 will send an email with the updated basis.
The actual basis is very important when comparing to other published trading systems. I'm working with a friend who subscribes to an email signal list and the returns are 278%, but his return is completely disconnected.
This should be interesting to keep the performance of strategies honest.
A good example I experience is with Fidelity SPDR sector ETFs. The volume difference and fill is much different than using State Street XL SPDR which has liquidity.
I'm working on a 5min bar trading system to see what will happen with a day trading algo.
The actual basis is very important when comparing to other published trading systems. I'm working with a friend who subscribes to an email signal list and the returns are 278%, but his return is completely disconnected.
This should be interesting to keep the performance of strategies honest.
A good example I experience is with Fidelity SPDR sector ETFs. The volume difference and fill is much different than using State Street XL SPDR which has liquidity.
I'm working on a 5min bar trading system to see what will happen with a day trading algo.
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